Day 44 Moral/ Ethical question

[tripperfunster]

First off, HAPPY AMERICA DAY! AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEVE ROGERS! :D
I hope all you Yanks are whooping it up with bbq and fireworks and family and friends. <3

Okay, now the question: DO YOU ILLEGALLY DOWNLOAD STUFF? Like, movies, music etc.

I do, and I don't. ;)

As a former musician, I have no problem paying a buck (or two) for a song that I like. In fact, I think it's a bargain. I used to buy the whole freakin' album, sometimes for just one song that I liked. To be able to pick and choose for frankly, less than a cup of tea is something I'm happy to do. Now, that said, there are certain artists that are not available for me to download. If I try, and cannot get a song/artist that I like, with money that I am willing to spend, then I have no problem gaining a copy elsewhere. I don't ...'rip' stuff. I am a total luddite and it is just not worth it to me to FIND my copy of whatever album and somehow, with the help of magical enchantments, pull a copy off of it and with more spells and potions get it to the right file on my computer and then to iTunes and then to my phone. No.

I'm kind of the same with movies. I have an illegal copy of Megamind (that someone else downloaded, because hey ... see above.) I also have a purchased copy of Megamind. I got my illegal one first, because the movie was not available for me to buy when I wanted to buy it and I did not want to wait five months. I also paid to see it in the theatre an embarassing amount of times, so I didn't feel like they were losing any money with me getting a 'preview' copy.

Do I judge people who download stuff illegally? Sort of, not really. I guess i judge people like my brother-in-law, who is a regular church-going Christian, but also a cheap bastard, who had illegal satilite when it was available, and also downloads stuff for free, because OMG FREE!

Disclaimer: I spent a good part of my youth shoplifting. I never 'robbed' anyone or stole cash (well, except from my parents ...) but yeah, still illegal, and I did it a fair amount. For the thrill, I guess. Of course, as karma would have it, now I own a retail store, and people rip me off all the time. :D

I'm probably 70/30 on my morality now. I usually let the clerk know if they've given me the wrong change (happens more often than you think) and the odd time that I've walked out of a store clutching something forgotten in my hand, I generally go back and return or buy the item. Except not always. ???? Sometimes I'm tired, or busy or just in a rotten mood. (or sometimes the store in question is a huge conglomerate that I think won't even notice.) But really, it's more about me than them, isn't it?

What about you? You can comment anon for obviuos reasons....

Comments

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

I have occasionally, for the same reason you have, if there's no way to obtain it legally.

...I guess technically it's illegal to watch a movie or show that's been uploaded to YouTube, isn't it? I've done that several times when I could have bought the movie on Amazon, because I just wanted to watch it once. I would have paid a few dollars to rent it on Amazon (I've done that with a few movies that were actually available to rent for $3) but I don't want to pay $14 to buy it.

I think that's what they need to do, make a lot more content available either for rent like on Amazon or on Netflix for a monthly fee. I think most people would pay a few dollars to watch it but they don't like having the only options be buy it forever or steal it.

I actually went to a streaming site to watch Sherlock series 2 before it was available here. I also pre-ordered the DVD as soon as I could.

[droxy.livejournal.com]

I dont download illegal shit. I'll tell you why. malware, virus, and the fact you have to pay for access to those sites, which means tracking..and giving a credit card nubmer to people who are stealing-think about it.

Also the music and film group, forget the acronym, has imposed ...somehow...upon the isps to track this shit. They will shut down your service if you are caught.

Now the easiest and most hidden way to copy things is check them out from your public library and copy them at home, with your PC disconnected from the net. Now, just viewing stuff from the library is legal and paid for by your tax dollars. If you dont like something you are not wasting space in your home or PC to store it. Best of all, you can do it w/o any moral compromise.

Another way is find someone who already downloaded the shit and do a drive/file swap via MAIL or in person. Keep the illegal content on a removable drive so it's not always "seen" by electronic eyes and "self reporting software" or accessed from the computer until you want to view it.

When you view it, unplug the pc from the net. Then clear cashe/play lists before going back on the net.

tsk tsk...

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I buy everything that I can buy. I believe in compensating the people who worked to create the media I like, and I like having the best quality viewing experiences, best files for vidding and fanmixing, and the extras that come with a legally bought product.

That said, I'm Canadian too, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we're consistently found to be at the head of the pack in both illegal downloading and legal digital purchases (i.e. we get a lot of shows late or never, and importing physical media usually burns us on the shipping). If I get interested in a show that doesn't air here, or only airs on a top-tier cable channel like BBC Canada, I'll stream it first to see if it's worth buying on DVD - or just watch it if it isn't available on DVD. If a U.S. or U.K. content owner is providing something free but region-locked, I'm not morally opposed to doing a little IP circumventing. If a movie is only playing in queasy-inducing 3D for $15 a ticket, I'll probably download it to preview before deciding whether to buy it.

I'd definitely be paying for a lot more digital media if international licensing could sort itself out, and if we had the level of Amazon or Netflix services they get in the U.S. I'd have happily paid for a season-long subscription to Legend of Korra through iTunes, but first it wasn't available in Canada, and then as of yesterday only had three out of twelve episodes up.

I just want nice things. But in Canada it is not allowed.

[nimielle.livejournal.com]

LMAO, long ranty comment is long. Sending it to you as a PM.

The gist was:

Creativity should be rewarded if you like it. That's how I roll. But butthurt music executive types bore me with their attitude.

[foxestacado.livejournal.com]

I used to do a lot more illegal downloading. Now, I rarely do. In fact, I can't remember the last time I downloaded something illegally, well, except the Sherlock episodes, which I later bought when they came out on DVD. I will if it's something I can't find legitimately, for example, rarer soundtracks.

I feel I should reward creativity, especially now that I have a job, just like others pay for my artwork. It doesn't matter if they're multibillionaires already, or if they're starving artists.

I just got a wealth of "resources" from a friend, and I haven't perused them yet because 1) I'm paranoid now that my occasional downloading will be tracked by Big Brother, and 2) if I do download, it is just to sample, and if I like it, I will buy it.

[vividescent.livejournal.com]

Pretty sure the stuff I download fits into a legal gray area. Most of it never gets licensed to the U.S. never mind even selling on U.S. soil in any way, shape, or form. The stuff that does end up licensed always does so some time after I've downloaded and is usually British.

That said, most of what I like isn't even in English, and the rest is random sports that none of the U.S. channels even bother to cover.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

Meh, too lazy to learn to dl illegally. And I will stream shit that I can't buy legally in my country - like Sherlock when it first came out. I own a legal copy now from Amazon. But, you know, I can afford to buy it. I'm not sure I'd be willing to say someone who can't afford stuff like music or movies should have to always do without, you know? I mean, there are so many things you can't have when you can't afford it that I don't feel comfortable side-eyeing someone who just wants entertainment.

[florahart]

Many things:

1. I download stuff and fileshare sometimes. I also buy CD/DVDs sometimes. I would, in fact, pay for downloading this stuff if I could count on being able to do so from a retailer I trust, but as I do not use iAnything because I profoundly do not trust Apple and their tracking activities, and I'm not excited about buying digital files from Amazon because: see Kindle take-back debacle which I agree they were in a legal corner but I feel they handled just about as badly as humanly possible...it's HARD to acquire stuff legally. Harder than it should be, I think.

2. Some stuff there is no buy and pay issue because for instance I do love me a mashup; those are generally just available for download.

3. I would absolutely go put $5 and a thumb drive in a kiosk and pick 10 songs to DL in whatever format, as long as the vendor was super up front about any additional files they were putting in place and what those would do; also as long as it was clear that once I buy the song it is fully legal for me to put it on whatever devices I own and transfer it around etc, in the same way I am allowed to pick up a CD I have bought and take it to a friend's house and play it there.

4. I think buying the CD and ripping it is going to go away as an option because newer laptops are no longer coming with optical drives as a standard feature. I blame Apple for this, too (they concluded several years ago that people were eventually going to stop wanting CD drives, and therefore stopped including them in order to stay ahead of the trend, thereby forcing the trend they were predicting). Notice Netflix is all about the streaming now (hahahahahahahaha I do not own a device that can hack that in a remotely acceptable way, so no, not for me).

5. What I actually want is to be able to order essentially a disposable made-to-order CD or other medium with no tracking crap on it. I would like to be able to go to a site and pick 18 songs, and have those burned onto a CD and mailed to me, or send as a file from a legit, no tracking crap, site, with the vendor handling how the artists and record labels/movie makers/whatever get paid, which, since they already have basically a system for this in existence because radios and number of screens and so forth--the framework exists, so all they'd have to do is extend that in a coherent and clear manner. I feel like if I can buy NOW 42 with 18 songs for $15 or whatever, I should also be able to do that with my own mix of songs, and pay less if I'm not buying the jewel case and so forth. I don't think this option currently exists.

6. I think the MPAA and music folks etc are creating this problem by their means of fighting it. They have envisioned a problem and decided to solve it, and they keep fucking up how to solve it. If they had gone about things in a pro-active user-centered manner, they would have AS SOON AS it became clear folks wanted file sharing, just developed a way to legally, smoothly, and without hassle download whatever. They would have made it EASY to acquire things from libraries in a manner that would support trying things out. They would have chosen transparency in their payment practices and in options. I think this is the opposite of the actual behavior (see: Sony and the sekrit rootkits), which only makes me feel like they're doing it wrong.

[oliversnape.livejournal.com]

I'm behind seven proxies.



;) Not really. When I download, I just route through two different countries. But I don't download much. I may do it to get a movie in that between period of cinema to dvd, or to test it out before I buy it. I did that with Dark Harbour, and even though it's a ridiculously badly filmed movie, I bought it anyway. I don't know why I like it so much, haha.

I do download some software, but I'm fairly competent with my Mac and how to identify certain threats.I view downloading as my own personal rental program, because of the four or five movies a year I get, I either buy the dvd after or delete it.

[lilacs-roses.livejournal.com]

Almost everything I have has been given to me by other people or is a backup copy of what my (now ex) husband and I had in our collection -- when we divorced, he took everything.

I believe that, if I were to get fined or jailed for anything, it would be for my writing fanfiction.

That said, it would be wonderful if the entertainment industry would offer things ala cart. Meaning that, instead of having us have to subscribe to a certain television or satellite package, if we could choose the channels that we want put together, I think a lot of people would be willing to pay a fair and reasonable price for them.

Needless to say, I *love* iTunes and Netflix.

[bluestocking79.livejournal.com]

If I'm a fan of something, especially something that's more indie/niche entertainment (which... describes a lot of my interests), then I really do want to reward the creators, whenever possible, by legally purchasing their show, or songs, or film, or what have you. I want the money to go to them, because they work hard and do good work, and I appreciate that.

HOWEVER, that isn't always an option. (Which is virtually never the creative person's fault, and virtually always the fault of clueless distributors and media conglomerates.) So when there is no legal way to purchase content, despite the fact that plenty of people are ready and eager to actually fork over money to do just that, then I have no problem downloading something, or watching it on YouTube or a livestream. When things are region-locked, or not aired/distributed in the US, there's really no other way to do it--but if/when the content does become legally available, I make it a point to purchase it, because I don't like the idea of punishing the artists because the executives are making it deliberately difficult for the full audience to access content legally.

I just really do not understand the logic behind region-locking, or taking down YouTube vids of stuff that is never going to be aired or distributed elsewhere. I've long thought that the BBC is missing a trick by not figuring out a way to make an international iPlayer available, for a subscription fee, so that international viewers can legally watch all the stuff they clearly enjoy and want to watch without having to resort to stealing it. I feel like the Powers That Be don't really understand the state of technology, or the fact that social networking means that once something airs in one place, people all over the world are talking about it--and want to be able to see it, too. They don't seem to have realized that this means a potentially much bigger paying audience! I'm sure there are people who pirate just because they're cheap and like getting free stuff--and those people will always exist--but I'm also pretty sure that a lot of people wouldn't pirate if they had some legal way to access what they want.

Besides, YouTube and DLs have made it possible for me to be introduced to a lot of new shows and movies, and to know that I like them and want to invest in them, which in turn made me go out and spend a lot of money on them, when possible.

[jin-fenghuang.livejournal.com]

Yes and no.

Pirated DVDs are sold in stores here.

For several reasons:

The movie industry refuses to adjust the prices down to local (China) incomes, but are happy to adjust them upwards for sale, say, in the EU.

If I were to buy a DVD legally here, I'd spend 200 RMB roughly USD 100 in buying-power (not value). To compare: 100 RMB buys my groceries for a week. 500 RMB buys a plane ticket to Bejing. 2.5 RMB buy a 500ml bottle of coke.

Who would buy any DVDs if they cost the same as two weeks of high-end groceries?

Now you can argue that that is just tough luck, here's the thing though, other companies do adjust their prices to the local market e.g. coke, McDonalds, H&M etc. and make good money.

So I do feel that the companies, and their greed, are pretty much at fault here too since their greed makes it impossible for 90% of the population to legally buy their products (DVDs) while cheap (illegal but not prosecuted) alternatives are available.

Note: I forgot to add: Buying downloads off Amazon is not possible, they IP ban us from buying.

[kath-ballantyne.livejournal.com]

We download a lot of stuff.
A lot of what we watch is British television.
We don't watch TV here much at all and we don't have any kind of pay tv so we download the telly shows we want to watch. We've got a fair few movies too but mostly it's just to see if we like it.

We can't afford to go to the cinema. It's too expensive and the closest one is an hour and a half drive away so it's a lot of petrol too.

If we love the TV show or movie we then buy the DVDs. These days we've been paying extra to get the DVD/BlueRay ones(even though we don't have a blue ray player) because they're the ones with all the extras and we're all about the commentaries and behind the scenes stuff.

So we download torrents instead of watching on telly and then buy the ones we love when we get birthday or christmas money.

Things that make me more likely to buy copies are if they are small, independent things or if they have lots of extras.

Our pathetically slow internet with it's tiny upload/download limits means that we can't manage things like streaming videos, TV channels online watch again things or netflicks type deals. I can't even look at tumblr during the day or we end up capped back down to dial up speed.

We download the TV and movies when we are visiting Ruth's family as they have an unlimited plan.

[tealightwhimsy.livejournal.com]

As a Librarian, I would like to add the reminders to 1) not grab a stack of CDs/DVDs and start ripping them while sitting in front of the circulation desk and 2) don't leave the ripped copies in the CD/DVD cases you are returning to the library. I doubt anyone here is dumb enough to do either of these things but I have personally witnessed both.

There was also the little girl who asked me if the only person who had a copy of the then-still-in-theaters Twilight was "that guy on the bike"...sigh.

All that being said, i used to illegally download a lot more when that option first came out but my tech was never quite capable enough to do any of that in a timely manner. Now, I'll download stuff like Sherlock 2 because I'm too impatient to wait but usually end up buying it when it becomes available.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's illegal to WATCH a show on Youtube, but just illegal to upload it? It would certainly be a hard thing to enforce anyway!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh God, I would never PAY for illegal stuff! jesus no! As you said, GIVE YOUR CREDIT CARD TO A THIEF? durr!

As for the library. Oh man, I don't think they'll ever let me back. I'm not good at returning stuff in a timely manner.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh god, stupid people never disappoint, do they?

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I agree. And yeah, I really DO want to give my money for things I enjoy. I have even bought a DVD AND downloaded a copy, because I don't know how to rip it, and I want it on my iPad AND the tv.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Absolutely agreed. Way too many executives have butthurt about things, when generally THEY make way more than the talent.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I agree. Especially with music. Really, a buck a song is pretty damn cheap.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's not REALLY stealing, if you TRY to give them your money and you can't.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Most of the people that I know can well afford the stuff they steal. they're just cheap.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I am not familiar with the Kindle Take-back debacle. Was it something that happened to just you? Or was this some sort of global fuck up?

and yes, a personal, legal playlist would be great.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Isn't dark Harbour the one where Rickman is NEKKID? ;)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I believe that, if I were to get fined or jailed for anything, it would be for my writing fanfiction.'éi.

Hee! "What are you in for?"
"Murder. What about you?"
"Writing porn."

:D

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is certainly frustrating, when the ONLY way we can get something, is by breaking the law. especially when we are more than willing to pay for it!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

That is crazy! I had no idea that some prices were that out of whack.

Yeah, as much as I don't mind paying for my entertainment, that sound a lot more like wallet-rape.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh, an hour and a half to see a movie? Yes, I can see where that would not be worth the effort at all. Are you very rural? Or is there just not a theatre near you?

I also have fairly crappy internet, and end up downloading stuff at work to save time. (I own the place, so I'm not ripping off my employer with my time or internet bytes)

[lilacs-roses.livejournal.com]

... You know what? Considering I had to go to parenting classes for putting a cat in the washer -- long story and NO the machine did not have any water in it and it was not on -- that sounds about right.

Why are you here?
My ex-boyfriend stuffed some plastic packaging down my baby's throat while I was away.
The PTBs don't believe my son has brittle bone disease, even though it's documented.
I put a cat in the washing machine.

Yep... /nods... Totally.

[oliversnape.livejournal.com]

Yes. Yes it is. *shifty eyes*

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Well, I"m worse than you. I"ve just watched that scene a bunch of times on Youtube. :D

[oliversnape.livejournal.com]

*snorts laughing* but did you full -screen it so you could see his cock better? And watch the nice lift of his arse as he walks? *G*

[leoparda.livejournal.com]

I download as much as I can, mainly because I'm impecunious (poor is a word I reserve for those lacking spiritual riches, of which I got plenty to share ^_^). However, I pay for stuff I think is really worth it whenever I can, like the work of independent artists.

Mass-market corporate-produced entertainment, I have no qualms about DLing. The robber-barons dominate the industry, anyway.

Also, as others have mentioned, some stuff never reaches the market, or at least not my area.

[florahart]

Global. There was a book which they had put up for sale. They subsequently found they had not had rights to do so. Therefore they removed it from all the kindles of the people who had bought it.

So, the people had bought and paid for something from a reputable vendor, and then some time later, that vendor (Amazon) anti-sold the item and took it back away without any kind of reasonable notice and basically allowing customers to take the fall for their own legaal failure.

Amazon also has had a number of fails in the LGBT arena, such as manually altering sales rates (not actual sales; the data which displays on the site for rankings) such that LGBT-themed books can't show up in top sales lists. Nice, huh?

[kath-ballantyne.livejournal.com]

We're very rural. We live in a village with a pub and a general store (has very little at really expensive prices) no mail delivery, we have to walk to the tiny post office to pick up our mail and take our own rubbish to the dump. We also can't get mobile phone signal in our house or most of the village.

It's an hour and a half to Bathurst where they have a theatre. We also have to drive there to get our groceries but with the 3 hour round trip I have to drive we never have the energy to go to the cinema too.

You'd think, living so far from anywhere we'd end up with a big house and yard but this is the tiniest place we've ever lived. Cottage has four rooms (filled with us, 2 cats, 2 dogs, two lizards, many, many books and lots of wool) and the garden is tiny. The rent is cheap but the rest of living out here really isn't.

We pay $95 a month for 5gig downloads in peak time and 12gig off peak. If we go over that we get capped back to dial up. >_< the internet really isn't built to deal with dial up speeds any more. Ruth's brother is 5 hours away and pays $60 for unlimited internet at twice the speed.

[vividescent.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Where else can I get my European World Cup skiing, Aussie/British/French/Chinese/Japanese/New Zealand equestrian events, Super Casino (hilarious for ppl sneaking naughty/funny nicknames on - this is on right now and the host said that they're going to change the naughty nicknames to something embarrassing because ppl do that so often and the hosts end up having to say it - i.e. someone once used the nickname Dropmypants and the host guy had to read it while he was talking, haha. They also try their best to fluster the hosts via e-mails and msgs which is really great.), Asian dramas and game shows like Run For Money Tousouchuu/Battle For Money Sentouchuu (so addictive, omg -- all I could find was older versions on youtube, but here is a part of an episode of Run for Money).

Run For Money takes Japanese celebrities like comedians, Olympic silver medalists, actors/actresses, and musicians and gives them protective gear and sets them all in a limited area like an amusement park, mall, sports stadium, ect., and they have to avoid being caught by "Hunters", men dressed in black suits with sunglasses who play the part of androids and are super fast. There's a timer and each passing second the money they earn increases, but if they're caught by the Hunters before the time is over then they get no money.

There are also two callboxes that the participants can choose to use to leave the game with what money they earned up to the second that they agree to leave, but almost everyone chooses not to do this. The participants also have to participate in three events or so while the Hunters are loose in order to prevent more Hunters or other things that could help the Hunters from being released. It's both hilarious and cool and neat, especially in later episodes where there's this massive sci-fi side plot revolving around Chronos and the Hunters.

My favorite Hunter is the one with long hair in the youtube video I linked. He's been in so many episodes! And so fast! But he reminds me kind of like a Siamese cat with his face.

None of these are licensed in the U.S. or even really available to buy/import from their native countries. Most are simply random tv shows the normal viewers take for granted. However, many of these have a substantial following over the internet. Even simple things like foreign dramas that could easily be licensed in the U.S. and do perfectly well won't be because the Japanese government seems against it from what I've seen. Their laws on DL/UL of licensed content are incredibly harsh, too.

The same argument applies to BBC and IPlayer as well - British tv programming that isn't just BBCA reruns from long ago? Outside of the UK it would totally have a buyer base. Programs like Nevermind the Buzzcocks and QI and even Have I Got News For You didn't make it to BBCA last I checked, but they'd all find a following willing to pay. PBS does a pretty good job of picking up ITV mysteries, for which they have my undying love and gratitude. <3