Sweetheart

[tripperfunster]

I just ... meh.

I just read a fic that was pretty okay. Manly men doing manly things with each other *wink wink* but just after coitus, one man called the other one 'sweetheart'.

Now, men are capable of a full range of emotions, and can certainly have silly pet names for each other, but it really comes off as 'abrupt needle scraping over record' when one burly (superhero/potions master/grisled doctor) calls his male lover 'sweetie/honey/lover/baby.'

Actually, I guess my actual problem with it is that BIG BURLY MEN can do that, but I KNOW THESE CHARACTERS! These specific characters wouldn't call each other that. (at least not in my head canon.)

I'm certainly not saying that people can't write what they like, I'm just saying that they shouldn't post it publically where I have to read it that it takes me out of the fic when I see it.

While I'm at it: Photomanipulation is not art!

Is it fun to make? Yes!
Does it take something original and change it to something new and different? Yes!
Is it difficult? Yes!
Does it take a long time to do it properly? Yes!

Is it art? NO!

Why is the cut-tag for it art? I am always sorely disappointed when I click on something titled 'art' and it's a photomanip. I just wish it would be called exactly that, and then I could choose to click or not. Maybe I should have a full-on hissy and post that photomanips are triggery for me? ;)

Tell me flist, what pisses you off? What do you get excited about that just ends in disappointment? SHARE MY BITCHINESS AND VALIDATE ME!

Comments

[theficklepickle.livejournal.com]

Endearments between men depend very much on context IMHO. In the UK it's very much a regional/class thing but thare are definitely times when a man might call another man 'sweetheart'. In fact my brother-in-law calls his son 'my lover' because that's a traditional local expression which would have the same sort of value as 'mate' or 'buddy' elsewhere.

But like I say, context is everything!

As for manips ... I have to admit I agree with you 100%. They're very clever, and they do require a certain amount of design skill, but that's not exactly what I think of when I think of art.

[torino10154]

Th only time I am OK with it when a guy calls the other sweetheart or baby is when it's intentionally sleazy or a dub-con type situation. Also, D/s nicknames are different. I have backed out of fic just because of one of the men calling his partner "baby" as a pet name.

I am not an artist but I wish there were better ways to tell who is actually doing what to produce an image. Photomanip, tracing and coloring, photo reference, Pencil touched up in Photoshop, etc. While I am not saying there is no skill involved in some mediums, I just would prefer knowing what I am looking at and when the medium just says "digital image" or something well, I have no idea.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

I feel that way about Poser art. I understand that there is some skill involved and some of it can look pretty good but it just doesn't really strike me as art. I'm not sure what I would call it but art just doesn't seem to suit.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

OMFG YES. I HATE HATE HATE PHOTOMANIPS.

Calling it art is just an insult to real artists. I feel similarly to fanvids. Not fucking art. Quit tagging it as such. I almost always lose my shit when I open a link thinking it's going to be art, and it's either one of the two. This is a huge pet peeve of mine. ARGH.

Photomanips were one of my biggest complaints in SGA fandom. Very little real art. Mostly photo manips of John and Rodney.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

I had a very good friend at one point who was a Poser 'artist.'

I fucking hated Poser art, and whenever she asked my opinion, I had to lie to spare her feelings. In her defense, though, I will say that Poser is a bitch to use. It's not at all user friendly. But yeah, the end result does little for me.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

It's creepy mostly, too uncanny valley for my taste. Give me a decently done hand drawing with all it's human flaws any day.

I don't doubt that it's a pain in the ass to use and get adept with but, ugh, they just look like lifeless dolls to me. And if it's sexual Poser art, nightmare fuel. DNW.

[themostepotente.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's very diorama-ish, isn't it? And I'm with you on the DNW aspect of NWS Poser art. So much fail.

[ani-bester.livejournal.com]

Ahhh I don't know. What I saw submitted when I was an art approver for AA was most certainly not art when it was a Phjotomanip. It was more like I found this photo of a red-headed woman in a magazine, made her eyes green and we're calling it Lily. No. Same with just two random photos pasted together.

On the other hand, this: http://www.deviantart.com/?qh=§ion=&global=1&q=Photo+manipulation#/art/18-Digital-Photo-Manipulation-Example-271663243?_sid=4f5fda8e
I have a hard time not seeing that as art.

SPN fandom IMHO has gotten to the point where they really are just amazing, so I don't know. I can see why they get called art. It's not traditional art but I think it's still art, depending on how it's done.

To me a bad photo manip is not any different than bad fanart in general ^^;;; I guess there's just more of it.

As far as pissing me off:
Character bashing in fics. I hate getting through a steve/Bucky fic and it was ust an excuse to trash Tony. Like wise in the Young Avenger fandom there were a number of fics that seemed to care more about bashign Eli than anything else. HP fandom would be awful at that too, especially with Ginny and Peter >.>

I also hate ship names. Horrible. I do not see what's wrong with PepperTony, why do we have to call this pepperony? Why is Stucky better than SteveBucky. Seriously Stucky? Was the fandom drunk? I just hate them all.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh Dear Lord! Calling your son 'My lover' could get you arrested over here! :D

I just don't think that Captain America would call Iron Man 'Sweetheart' the first time they fucked. Maybe the second ... ;)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, digital image can be decieving. I think that tag is made by people who don't understand the difference between drawing digitally, and manipulating digitally.

Tony and Steve call each other Sweetheart and such in the comics, but they are being ironic smartasses. If they actually hooked up, I just don't think (most) grown men would talk to other grown men that way.

Hell, even my husband and myself pretty much only call each other 'honeypie' or 'lovecup' when we're being ridiculous. 'Hon' us about as gooey as we get.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, poser art is gross! WTF, people's bodies don't move that way! Especially in the shoulder/arm areas. I can even tell when someone has used Poser as a reference for an actual drawing. DNW

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Do you mean to say that you've seen NON-SEXUAL poser art? I didn't know it existed!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I don't hate them, per se, I just hate when I *think* I'm going to see a drawing, and i get that instead. Or even 'title pages' for big bang stories that are just photos of the actors with a title. WTF? If I wrote 2938439432 words of fic, and got THAT from my 'artist', I would shit myself.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oooh, that picture is cool! And there HAD to be a pretty good amount of digital drawing that went into that as well. I was talking more along the lines of this: http://i.imgur.com/yF0gv.jpg
****whoops! Edited to add link is NSWF!!*** Sorry about that!
Even when they're well done, they're still not 'art' to me.

And YES to character bashing! You don't have to kill one ship to make another. I really love stories where Pepper is totally kick ass and a wonderful supporter of Tony, even after they've broken up.

I also hate the EVERYONE IS GAY trope. I found that especially bad in HP fandom. I usually won't read a story if it has more than two pairings. It starts to feel more like a soap opera than a fic.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

It does and it lowers the squick level from 11 to 10, still creepy as fuck but at least I'm not looking at anyone's plasticine junk.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

Whoa, people really do that? I would be extremely pissed if that happened to me. Good thing I'm not a writer.

I have no particular problem with photo manips mostly because they tend to be fucking hilariously horrible and I like to laugh.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

It's kinda like watching Barbie dolls fuck.

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

I also hate the EVERYONE IS GAY trope. I found that especially bad in HP fandom. I usually won't read a story if it has more than two pairings. It starts to feel more like a soap opera than a fic.

Aww come on, you're saying you wouldn't find a "Slughorn/Dumbledore, Harry/Draco, Hermione/Pansy" triple date fic both hot and totally believable? :P

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I dunno ... you kind of had me at Slughorn/Dumbledore ;) Sluggledore? Dumblehorn?

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

You know, Sluggledore sounds kind cute, like Snuggledore. Awww.

Although now the image of Dumbledore and the Snuggle fabric softner bear is stuck in my head. And that makes me unhappy. Never mind.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Unhappy for you, art bunny for me! ;) (I already drew Harry with Pedobear.)

[akatnamedeaster.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry Snuggle bear. 0_o

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I would rather go the entire fic without hearing the guys say "I love you," because it's the rare author who can pull it off and not make me wince in embarrassment at how forced it seems.

I will defend to the death the idea that photomanipulation is a form of art but that does not mean I LIKE it. ^_^ It can hit my "Ew" buttons pretty strongly.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I"m not really saying it isn't a FORM of art, but so are dancing and singing, and when I click on a link that says ART, I am expecting something drawn by hand, not dancing, singing or photomanips.

People can make and like what they want, I would just appreciate a different label so that I can avoid it at all costs.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Heh, now I'm imagining the furor if people start putting out labels: "Trigger warining: PHOTOMANIP".

[zeta-tauri.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I have to admit, as a gay man, your first part rubbed me the wrong way. You could call my fella a bear, if not for the fact that he's more slim and muscular than he is the typical build one associates with bears. But he's big, he's hairy and manly, and he uses all sorts of terms of endearment. It's one thing if you think it's ooc for a character to say something like that, and quite another to make broad, sweeping generalisations like that. :/

Arguing the other side

[k8bnimble.livejournal.com]

What defines art? The method by which it's made or the imagination and skill that went into it? Or by the viewer's response? In order to be art, does it have to be done by hand? How is a computer a different tool than a paintbrush if used by someone skilled?

Is abstract art not art? Because many people don't believe that because it doesn't look like something specific. Or they think it looks like a five year old did it. Many people hate Van Gogh's work but he is considered one of the world's greatest artists. Is a stick figure art? It's a very simple line drawing that anyone can do but because it's pencil, does that make it art? Should a stick figure be tagged art just because it was done by hand? How about Graffiti? To many and for many years it wasn't art but great graffiti art actually takes skill and those style influences have become part or more main stream visual sensibilities.

Art is subjective - it's what moves you. I like abstracts very much - but not all of them. I also don't appreciate all hand drawn art. I'd rather have a great digital manip than a bad stick figure although I appreciate line drawings that evoke an image simply. Just because it's simple, doesn't mean it's not art. It depends on the context.

I admit my bias as I do some digital manips on occasion as quite frankly I don't have the eye-hand dexterity required for drawing so is what I do easier than what you do? I assume so although for some naturally gifted artists, what I do may be harder since it requires technical training (which I'm still learning) as well as imagination and some artists seem to have been naturally gifted (my sister is one and I wish I had her skill although she appreciates mine just the same). I've done some I'm quite proud of and others that I can see could use a higher level of skill that I had at the time I did them. It's still art - just maybe bad art. Or maybe not bad, but just not great.

That said - not all artists are great artists (or even good) and neither am I. I freely admit that but I've been asked to do them professionally at work on occasion for fun or gifts. Does that not make that art? Heck, the CEO framed one and hung it in the office. To the recipient that appreciates it, it is.

I was an art consultant once in my career and we had a philosophy of "no yuks or boos" meaning that what you might hate in art, someone else might love and therein lies the art. It's far too easy to step on others' artistic toes so to speak and I'm not trying to here. This has been a long debate I've had many times with people claiming certain things aren't art. It's my own pet peeve.

You have every right to dislike manips but to outright claim they are not art is wrong in my view. Art is in the eye of the beholder. Are there bad manips? Absolutely. Some of mine are probably included in that. Are there ones I would call art? Yes. I've seen many that were inventive, imaginative and well-executed and I call that art. I would say the same thing about fan vids - ones that are well done have used imagination and technical ability to express something that means something to the creator and often to the viewers. How is that not art? Art is a general concept that any visual medium expresses.

The real issue is not that manips aren't art, but that #art is not enough of a tag. That's like saying #music should only be used for symphonies and opera but not for other styles of music like #rap or #bluegrass that many people don't like. They are music even if a person doesn't care for the style.

Perhaps tags should also include the type of medium - ie #art, #pencil or #art, #manip like it should be #music, #symphony or #music, #rap so it's clearer to the viewers. Certainly I will consider that for my future endeavors. I never realized it was a hot spot for some people.

I'll stop waxing poetically on this now. As I mentioned, this actually happens to be one the debates that can get me started.

I've always loved your work. When I was more involved in the Snarry fandom, I always looked forward to seeing what you created for various fests and I still enjoy your work in other areas now. Like with my sister, I wish I had your skill with a pencil and appreciate your talents.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Holy shit! I swear I have answered your comment three times, and it keeps not showing up! (My apologies if YOU get it three or more times!)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Okay, not that my replies seem to be showing up, I'll try again.

Please note that I said:
Now, men are capable of a full range of emotions, and can certainly have silly pet names for each other and Actually, I guess my actual problem with it is that BIG BURLY MEN can do that, but I KNOW THESE CHARACTERS! These specific characters wouldn't call each other that. (at least not in my head canon.)

I think it's lovely that your guy has pet names for you, but I honestly can't see Snape calling Harry 'baby' or Captain America calling Iron Man 'sweetheart'. At least not right after the first time they hook up.

Edited for missing 'e'

I have all sorts of deranged pet names for my animals, but not for my hubby, unless I'm trying to be ridiculous. *shrug*

Re: Arguing the other side

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

:D Well, some people think that stringing up dead/mutilated rabbits in baby clothes is art. (seriously, we had someone here get a GOVERNMENT GRANT for that art ..??)

I wasn't really trying to make an argument about what is and isn't art in the broad scheme of things. Many people wouldn't consider fanart to be art, and I suppose I would have to agree with them.

I just meant in the context of clicking on an lj cut. I"m not pissed enough to mount an uprising about tags, but I must admit I am always disappointed when I click on that cut and it is a manip instead of something hand drawn.

Nice rant, btw, you were certainly spot on with most of it!

[dottycow.livejournal.com]

I remember having very similar thoughts re: baby/sweetheart when you posted about epitaphs...
I think if I were writing a fic where two characters that had previously not used petnames (or at least not sappy ones like sweetheart... possibly a capsicle or two) if one postcoitally called the other sweetheart, it would only work if done sarcastically... and would probably earn them a slap or punch in the arm or something.... but it really does depend on the characters and the build up... I'm not a fan of pet names at the best of times but out of the blue and totally OOC I do not like... at all...x-(