A Question, my flist ...

[tripperfunster]

Do you think I'm mean?

I was once called out, for drawing a picture of Umbridge pole dancing, and Harry being horrified and traumatized. The commenter made a comment along the lines of, "urg, another person making fun of fat people, I'm sick of 'fat-ism', and people thinking it's okay to make fun of fat people .. etc etc.

Now, I get that. Lots of people make fun of fat people, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't laugh at Bart Simpson, when his goal was to be so fat that he "washed himself with a rag on a stick",but really, I didn't draw her with the focus on her being fat. I drew her as chubby, and roly poly,(as per canon) but not like, gargantuan. To me, the point of the joke was that poor Harry went to see a stripper, and it was UMBRIDGE! Dear God! How traumatizing would that be? I mean, it wouldn't have been funny if it had been a nice, attractive person.

The reason I ask, is that I am drawing a picture of Mr. Dursley for hump_day tomorrow, and hubby walked by and looked, and said, "Aw, that's mean!"

Is it? Is it mean to draw Vernon naked? Or would it be meaner to NEVER draw him, because he's fat?

I draw all the HP characters, pretty much. ESPECIALLY the ugly/old/fat/skinny/bearded/wrinkly ones. They're way more fun to draw! And honestly, that's pretty much why I rarely draw Draco, or Sirius or James etc, because ... they're nice looking and ... normal.

Anyhoo ... do you think my art is mean?

I don't think it is. And while I tend to speak before i think, I don't make a habit of picking on people.

BTW, not sure if it matters, but I am not really fat OR skinny. I'm kinda in the middle. (although, according to the charts at Weight Watchers, I'm morbidly obese. *eyeroll*)

Comments

[clayangel.livejournal.com]

I don't think you're mean at all. Hell, my first picture for Hump_Day was Vernon/Dudley, and that was a blast to draw because, like you said, the not traditionally "pretty" people are far more fun to draw. ^_^ Besides, if drawing Vernon meant I was mocking fat people, it'd be pretty damn hypocritical. :P

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that Vernon/Dudley one was GREAT! AND WRONG! :D

*I* don't think I'm mean, but I also know that I'm not always very sensitive, and can steamroll my way through life sometimes.

I mean, I know my art would be considered offensive to like ... 90% of the human population, but hopefully not meanspirited. ;D

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

A lot of the HP art you do has a vaguely caricature-esque quality about it, meaning that you emphasize certain attributes to make it clear who the character is and, presumably, for effect. To be able to do this kind of work, you have to, you know, notice the things that distinguish one character from another (glasses, wrinkles, belly, scar, nose).

Now, for those of us who are into bellies and glasses and wrinkles and scars and big noses, seeing them represented in art is cool. But if I thought those things were vaguely embarrassing and horrid, then yeah, an artist who focused on them might seem mean.

In other words, no...I don't think you're mean. not even a little.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Ha! I'm glad you clarified at the end, because it really wasn't clear. :D

Thanks hon. I would really hate to think that there are tentacle-faced, fish peened men out there that are offended by my art. :p

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think you're mean. I think you like to lampoon everyone, and that's a hallmark of your talent and style. And it's something I enjoy and look forward too.

But I can't speak for anyone other than me, and you can't really control how others interpret your artwork. However, you don't have to accept the labels others attempt to affix to you. Likewise, you don't have to give two shits about what I'm saying either.

If what you draw strikes someone as mean or triggering or traumatizing, it clearly is for them. However, I reject the idea that if you do something that traumatizes, triggers, or offends someone that and inherent part of your character is that you are an offensive, mean, triggering ass.

Do you feel comfortable lampooning a fat character? Do you feel you are treating a fat character differently than you treat an old, male, female, young, human, non-human, muggle, magical character? Do YOU think you are mean?

If you don't, don't worry about it. If you do, reflect on whether this is acceptable to you or not.

BTW, I apologize for what I perceive to be a particularly belligerent tone. I've got a bit of a buzz on.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Hee! Actually, your spelling is very good for a drunk! ;)

You ask some great questions. I think I'm an equal opportunity lampooner, and I certainly don't feel mean when I'm mocking characters.

But really, do assholes ever THINK that they're assholes?

[redheadsarehot.livejournal.com]

As a fat person, I am not offended by people drawing pictures of fat people. That person that complained is the type of person that looks for things to be offended by. Its true, I think that it probably is more offensive for someone not to draw someone because they are fat. People are all sizes and life is supposed to imitate art right? Well for the most part. So don't let these whiny babies make you feel bad for what you do! Keep it up and I can't wait to see big fat Vernon!! :D

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I do agree, the person that originally complained (and this was ages ago) was pretty damn uptight about a lot of stuff, not just me.

I hadn't given it a second thought until hubby said it tonight.

He was more worried that the actor would see it (or his family) and they would be offended. LIEK, THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM ANYTHING ELSE I'VE EVER DRAWN? Dear God! I'm surprised Alan Rickman's family hasn't taken out a cease and desist order against me already! *g*

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

You don't exactly draw a big red arrow to their stomach with an adjective or anything.
Well, PENIS, maybe! :D

Thanks hon. And I agree. It just made me wonder, when hubby said it tonight.

[droxy.livejournal.com]

I dont think its mean, we understand the character context. Your reviewer has had a bad experience. I know what it's like to be fat. Its a miserable experience and you are discriminated against.

You are known for humor in your art.

If we tossed out art for people who are not attractive by todays standards, all those very pretty pics by very famouse artists of chubby women would get chucked. When is teh PC shit ever going to stop. Peoplen eed to relearn manner on a whole in society.

I could go death eater and say this. It is a fact of life that humanity judges fat people. Is it right? Not the question. Do human prefer pretty people, yes they do. Its a fact. Look at any dating site. Look at the quantity of art of fanon Snape versus canon!Snape. Read any socio-biology study on it.

Do your art. Part of being an artist is to handle crit. It shows you have heart that you care. but you can't please everyone. Sorry for being direct. Hugs.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

No! I like direct! I'm much too slow to pick up hints! :D

Oddly enough, I guess I rarely get crit. I know lots of artists who are constantly getting unsolicited advice, not only on their actual art, but on their choices of subject matter. Other than that one time (and today from hubby) i think people are too afraid. or traumatized

[gmonkey42.livejournal.com]

That's a tricky one. It doesn't help that all the fat characters in HP are evil, or at best stupid. I'd say keep on drawing them. I haven't seen that drawing but I don't think your other drawings are mean. Like your Slumbledore drawing: that's funny & squicky-in-a-good-way not because they're old and Slughorn is fat, it's funny because holy crap, Slughorn with Dumbledore!

I dunno. I don't really have a good answer.

I'm also an in-betweenie.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

That's a tricky one. It doesn't help that all the fat characters in HP are evil, or at best stupid. OMG! No kidding!

I'm surprised Voldemort wasn't a snake-nosed version of Fat Bastard!

As for slumbleore, I think it's funny because of all of those things, fat included. Now that I think about it, I guess it's funny because it's REAL. Old fat people LIKE SEX! It's true! And I am well on my way to being one of them! ;P

Sexy models are fun to look at, but they really don't represent the majority of us.

WHERE ARE THE IN-BETWEENIE MODELS??

My Two Cents

[theficklepickle.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm fat ... like F-A-T. Comic Book Guy in 'The Simpsons' is my role model. (I don't download dirty pics of Captain Janeway, but I would download dirty pics of Data if they were available.) I don't care about, and I have never have, humourists/cartoonists or whatever making fun of fat people - any more than I care about them making fun of people with big noses or bizarre hairstyles or any other distinguishing feature. We do not all conform to a set physical stereotype, thank goodness.

I've never known you to be mean in any respect. If I thought you were, I wouldn't be on your f-list and you wouldn't be on mine. Some people are a bit over-sensitive, admittedly, and might be offended, but that's always the case with humour. You can't please everybody. You should certainly not make any changes to what you do based on the comments of one thin-skinned individual. She can always vote with her feet and go somewhere else.

Re: My Two Cents

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I pretty much thought exactly what you said, but sometimes, especially over the internet, we can lose sight of what we are/do/create.

I appreciate the kind, honest words.

[joanwilder.livejournal.com]

You? Mean? Awwwww, c'mon. No, I know it's a srs question, but the point is that you have to draw the characters you have the yen to draw, and you draw them in a fair representation of how canon shows them to us. Except for Snape, who you sometimes confuse with You Know Who AR. I don't think it's mean at all, and caricaturing is one of your stronger stylistic techniques; if the person happens to be fat, or ugly or hairy, then by nature of the style, you'll exaggerate that feature. Some folks focus on a particular thing in art (or a story) because it's a personal attribute they struggle with themselves; they get confused that it's not about being fat, it's not about them at all, in this case it's about Vernon being Vernon and Umbridge being Umbridge.

You are not kinda in the middle. You're curvy and pervy and...wait...you have a GIRL WOODIE!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

You know what's funny? You and a bunch of other people have called my 'style' caricaturing, and I'm like, whut? I TOTES DRAW THEM EXACTLY AS THEY ARE! No, really!

I might have to get my brain eyes checked.

eta: My girl woodie is only for you, bb!

[the-reda.livejournal.com]

Oh boy.

No, I do not think you are mean, but that someone is projecting hard.

Now I get that people have issues (we all do), but your journal is not her safe space. If anyone can be/should be blamed it is Rowling for making chubby/ugly/etc characters evil.

And honey, you are just the right size! *cuddles*

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Actually, she was skinny, and so is my husband! :D

And yes, I must agree, that if anyone is a fat-ist, it's rowling! What the heck is up with that?

*cuddles you back*

[sra-danvers.livejournal.com]

First of all: Eh! I wanna see that art! XD

Yes, you're so mean. You made fun also of old people (Dumby). And ugly people! (Filch). And...

Well, you make fun of everything, and I'm so grateful, thank you very much! That's humour! The first important thing is to laugh of himself. And later.. the rest of the world! XD

And specially in that case, Umbridge is so bad, and we laugh because of it, not because she's fat. Please!

Don't worry, the people send flames I thing they have so much time and a little brain to takes up it ;-)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh God, I don't even know where it is. it was an old smut_wednesday drawing, and really, just a very quick cartoon. Vernon will be up on Hump_day in an hour or so.

Also, not a great drawing, but THE SPARK OF CONTROVERSY!! ;)

I am hoping to finish your art today! I'll email it when I'm done! (and mail it too, of course!)

[djin7.livejournal.com]

YOU ARE THE MEANEST BITCH I HAVE EVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF DRINKING WITH.

That said, um, caricature art done by you (not the serious/romantic stuff) often "accentuates" certain things, such as penis size or similar. Umbridge has no penis, so you made up for it with perhaps other curvy women bits. It's simply a facet of your crack drawing. I know you're not picking on/demoralizing anyone. I know this because if you were, you would do a picture of say, ME, doing a pole dance in pasties for Harry. Don't even think about it.

Umbridge does not require an advocate against meanness to her person. Just putting that out there.

[jin-fenghuang.livejournal.com]

/ME, doing a pole dance in pasties for Harry. Don't even think about it./

Someone is tempting fate :P

[archea2.livejournal.com]

Well, if I think back on your latest production, aka your Slumbledore, I did not picture you pinching your nose while drawing one fat man bringing off one very aged man. I pictured you having fun showing two "unlikely" partners - in the eyes of our very normative Western civilization - having intercourse in what seemed to me a perfectly consensual and tender way. The picture was funny but less because of them than because of us and our expectations in the way of erotic drawings.

In other terms, if your intention was to squick us all into bawling "eeeeeeh only thin pretty young clean-shaven bright-eyed people ought to be shown in the nude", it failed miserably as far as I'm concerned. I thought them rather cute.^^

But I don't think that was your intention so no, I don't think you're mean. If you draw Vernon in a ridiculous naked position I'll laugh because Vernon is mean, not because he's fat. The day you show us Hepzibah Smith having the time of her life with young Tom Riddle, I'll simply cry out "Good for you, Hepzibah! (I hope)".

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Okay, I have no idea who Hepzibah smith is.

My brain cancelled out all of the parts that didnt' include Snape. ;)

Wow! Your first paragraph TOTALLY sums up my art! I was trying to figure out WHY I DO WHAT I DO, and that is really it.

I read it like, six times! Thank you so much for putting my jumbled thoughts into concise words! <3

[tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com]

I agree with everyone else. I'm just going to assume that your detractors are unfamiliar with the canon characters? If that reviewer didn't know that Umbridge was a evil, horrible person besides being fat, they might think it was her size you were making fun of, and not the fact that no matter how she looked, Harry would be traumatized to see her naked. What were you supposed to do, make her hot? Yeah, because that just clears everything up!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh god, the thought of Hot Umbridge makes my eyes melt!

I don't know if she knew about Umbridge's character or not. But I agree. It could have just as easily been Petunia or even Minerva and he would have been traumatized. Not Umbridge is evil to boot!

[tribbletastic.livejournal.com]

You art isnt mean at all!
If people decide to see what they are uncomfortable in your art, then it is their own issues.

The fact that both of the characters you drew ARE overwieght, it would be more offensive if you made them ridiculously skinny, wouldnt it?

Then people would complain about that.

Some people are just angry and need to chiiiiiiiiilll

Hope everything works out bb! <3

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Thanks hon! There's nothing to work out, really. The original complainer was ages ago, and i hadn't really thought about it until hubby said something last night.

And hubby wasn't really calling ME mean, he was just feeling sorry for the actor that portrays Dursley. Like, in case he saw himself nude on the internet.

Yeah, like that's different than all my other art?

[torino10154]

Agreeing with everyone else (helpful, y/y?). Vernon is funny because he's Vernon, that he's fat is secondary.

Dumbles/Sluggo is funny cause they are two old men anyway--which good on them for going at it like young turks! But it isn't gonna be pretty. Filch isn't fat yet I really don't want to see him nekkid either, ya know? Especially held up by thumbscrews while Umbridge or Dumbles has his wicked way with him. :P

You draw caricatures more often than not, features are exaggerated. It's the nature of the beast. That person likely would be offended by watching the Giant Squid buggering Hagrid and/or Flitwick (at the same time). Some people. ;)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Hee! so true. And Filch held up by thumbscrews? *g* Don't give me ideas!

[whatthefuckbenj.livejournal.com]

nope and nope! you just like to draw different stuff (which is awesome might I add..)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Why thank you! I"m pleased that no one has called me a fat-nazi yet.

[recrudescence.livejournal.com]

I really like that you don't draw uniformly hot people--you have range, and it's good to see different characters get some due representation. And to be honest, seeing any teacher work a pole would be traumatizing because...it's your teacher.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Ha! So funny, since you ARE a teacher!

Hey! You package arrived yesterday! OMG THOSE STAMPS ARE SO CUTE! What the heck do they say? (they are the tiny, green frog-like guys with :D 0_o kind of expressions, in case you've forgotten)

I have a bunch of stuff that i FAILED to send before xmas, and your stuff is among that. Any Canadian requests?

[juniperus.livejournal.com]

FWIW, you did fine with my picture (not that it was nude, thank the gods, nor was I on a stripper pole), and I am really fucking fat. Not chubby, oh no... FAT.

I don't think it's mean, unless the character in question is portrayed especially unflatteringly specifically because of their weight (as opposed to the distasteful personality as a character who happens to also have less-than-ideal body type). EX: drawing Sprout in a skin-tight robe at the Yule Ball as the foil for a look of shock and disgust on Snape's face would be MEAN. The look on his face changes to that of a hungry man who sees dinner, complete with drool? Fiiiiine.

Personally, I think there should be MORE imperfect in fanart... if my 2d skills were where they were 20 yrs ago I'd draw a sensuous, FAT, Bulstrode or Sprout or whomever in a classical reclining nude position just to put the miles of smooth flesh on display (and make the fat-haters bug-eye). :P

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

(not that it was nude, thank the gods, nor was I on a stripper pole), You had only to ask! :D

Thanks for confirming what I already thought.

Oh, and : http://tripperfunster.deviantart.com/art/Cupid-Snape-and-Sprout-28126883

[euclase.livejournal.com]

I'm commenting without reading the other comments, but I'm sure everyone above me has said you're not mean. I tend to agree. The fact that you wrote this post proves it. There's a difference between doing something that's offensive to some people versus being consistently cruel and prejudiced and nasty. Uh, you're not that. You're just demented. ;)

However, people have a right to think you're nice just as much as they have a right to think you're mean. You wouldn't go around asking in a worried voice, "Am I nice?" You wouldn't call people on thinking you're doing good.

So what if you're mean? Is my point. You don't owe anyone, and you can't control what people are going to assume or be offended by. If you feel mean and don't want to feel mean, then do things to feel nicer.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I don't feel mean. But I'm not always aware of how I can bulldoze over people sometimes.

Sometimes, I just need a check in. :D

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

*snort* I don't think you're mean. I'm sure there are people who think we're all mean though, and there isn't anything we can - or really should - do about it. Some people are sensitive (and over-sensitive!) about certain things, and nothing we do or say is going to change that. And it's not just about art and the depiction of overweight people - pick any topic or issue. Some people have legitimate points, others are contrary for whatever reason, including 'just for the sake of being contrary.' You'll (generic you which includes me as well!) never please everyone, you'll never not offend someone - after all, things like sex, nudity, same sex couples, depictions of older (and/or overweight) people in situations of the former, etc. is going to be offensive to someone.

Not to mention, this is fandom, where there are Harry/Draco and Harry/Hermione shippers who are offended by Ginny's (and Ron's) existence, Remus/Sirius shippers who are offended by Tonks' sheer gall at *gasp* falling in love with Remus, people who are offended because JKR didn't write what they wanted her to, people who were disgusted that Dumbledore was gay (and several of those merely because he was, and I quote, "icky and old"), Snape fen who are offended by the Snape/Lily backstory, fen who are offended/disgusted when characters are drawn/depicted with uncircumcised penises, et.al. ad nauseum.

I wonder what they'd think of The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I love that pic! I mean, TENTACLE SEX! WHO DOESN'T LOVE THAT? :D

Thanks for the input!

[outofthisplace.livejournal.com]

aaahahahahah you are not mean at all, don't listen to stupid sensitive flamers who entirely miss the joke.
Also, uhm, how is drawing a fat naked person accurate to size mean? Like, if I have a nude drawing class or something, the whole point is to get all those folds of fat in, not make the model look like... er, a model. lol.

I'm plus size myself!

[florence-craye.livejournal.com]

I agree with the comments above, even if I'm a little late! I think the only person who could be accused of having something against overweight people is JKR herself... she has a tendency to write fat characters and evil or ugly. But you're just interpreting that and representing them! No problem. I think your work is definitely not mean. And who else is going to draw them in the nude? Someone's got to do it. ;)

I also seem to remember seeing that actor at least without a shirt on in a movie from the 90s, so he probably doesn't mind. lol

[1scout.livejournal.com]

I'm confused...I've never thought of your art as caricature in any way. It's always straight forward and either funny as hell, or incredibly beautiful.
And I don't think you're mean. Witty and maniacal, yes. Mean? Not even.
Don't worry about other peoples opinions except ours, we're the only people who count. LOL!

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

Mean? MEAN!!? WOW WHAT. *BOGGLES*

Okay, first off, Umbridge pole-dancing - it's Umbridge!!! She's written to be hated not only due to her frog-like looks, but her disgusting personality! Who WOULDN'T be horrified!? FAT-ISM? wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Drawing Vernon is not mean. Christ. Again, he's disgusting on his own even if he wasn't a fat guy. So he doesn't exactly deserve the nicest picture.

You're right, you do draw all the characters, regardless of young and pretty or wrinkly sacs. If someone with a weak hide is going to come along and call you mean because you draw some chub, ignore the fuck out of them. While JKR does seem to write her overweight characters as ugly/evil asshats, that's not YOUR fault, you simply go along with character, that's part of the whole fucking joke.

Ugh.

People of all shapes and sizes get made of. To be honest, fat people are made fun of a lot, and they know it. I would think it's clear that funny character art is much much different than walking up to a person and going "you're fat so people should poke you with a stick!!!"

ffffffff

rant tiem over. *Hugs the Tripp!!* ♥