Rating Question for A03

[tripperfunster]

The rating on my Regarding Tony comic is M for Mature on A03. While there is peen there is no graphic penetration, there is no non-con or even dub-con really.

Someone commented there that I need to change the rating, and I'm honestly not sure if I should. The next step up is E for Explicit which is 'only for adults'.

I would think that the rating of Mature pretty much implies it's only for adults too. (The rating down is Teen.)

Whatdaya think?

Comments

[twillery.livejournal.com]

"M" is just fine! It fits the tone so far, and any for the future, and the big-shot video game series of your choice (and, if anything 'warmer' happens, then you wouldn't have to go back up from Teen to Mature again?)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I wasn't thinking of going down to teen, my question was, should it go from Mature to Explicit?

[evilmissbecky.livejournal.com]

I would change it, just because to me "explicit" translates to NSFW, which peen most definitely is.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Then what would mature mean? I would assume they are both nsfw, but Explicit would be darker themes.

There didn't seem to be any explanation on the site of which rating meant which.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Erect cock during a sex scene in a visual medium definitely equals explicit to me. Not that I'm a big fan of the MPAA's system, but this would be NC-17 rather than R if it were a film.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but what would Mature mean to you?

The comment was a tad snarky, and I'd honestly thought I'd rated it G or something by mistake.

It's really no skin off my nose to change the rating, I was just surprised that Mature didn't cover it.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

In terms of visual art, Mature to me would be either full-frontal nudity without signs of sexual excitement or a sex scene in which the genitals are not visible. When you have naked genitals in a state of excitement during a sex scene, that's Explicit to me.

AO3 provides the following definitions:
Mature - "This is for content with adult themes (sex, violence, etc.) that isn't as graphic as explicit-rated content."
Explicit - "This is for porn, graphic violence, etc."

FF.Net weighs in (albeit in terms of written content):
M [Mature]: Not suitable for children or teens below the age of 16 with non-explicit suggestive adult themes, references to some violence, or coarse language. Fiction M can contain adult language, themes and suggestions. Detailed descriptions of physical interaction of sexual or violent nature is considered Fiction MA [Explicit].

Explicit is just that to me: we are in no doubt of exactly what they're doing. Again, the movie analogy is flawed, but if you rented a Rated R movie with sexual content, you'd expect to see bare butts, orgasm-faces, some suggestive movements and maybe a brief moment of non-aroused nudity. You wouldn't expect to see a naked and erect cock going into someone's mouth.

Of course, I'm much more likely to click on a work marked Explicit than one marked Mature... *g*

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Aaah yes! It's a selling point! ;)

Where did you find those definitions on A03? I looked and looked and found nothing! grrrr

I guess I'm also over-keen on what 'Teen' would be. Geez, if a Teen can't see what you (and they) rate as mature, then I was one out of control teen!

Technically, any nude that shows genitals (ie: anything my DaVinci or Michelangelo) would be considered Mature. *eyeroll*

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Where did you find those definitions on A03? I looked and looked and found nothing! grrrr

My bad - I got it from Fanlore, another OTW project, but I should add that the AO3 ToS makes it clear that they have no interest in policing the difference between Mature and Explicit, and will only take abuse complaints if something is rated Gen or Teen when it should be Mature or Explicit.

I guess I'm also over-keen on what 'Teen' would be. Geez, if a Teen can't see what you (and they) rate as mature, then I was one out of control teen!

Teen generally refers to the lower end of the teenage spectrum, i.e. thirteen-year-olds. And yes, those of us in this corner of fandom were reading our share of porn by that age, but amongst the general population, that's actually not always the case. For me, in fic at least, the difference between Teen and Mature has more to do with emotional context than with level of detail (which seems to be the line you're trying to draw between Mature and Explicit). The same non-detailed scene of sexual content could be Teen if everything's consensual and above-board, but would likely be Mature if there are any subtle issues that I think someone would need to be more, well, mature to pick up on. But to me the difference between Mature and Explicit is in the name. Is there explicit sex? If yes, then Explicit.

Technically, any nude that shows genitals (ie: anything my DaVinci or Michelangelo) would be considered Mature. *eyeroll*

Sorry, I should clarify that I meant titillating nudity that doesn't show sexual arousal for my definition of Mature - i.e. beefcake. Incidental nudity can be anything from G up.

[verizonhorizon.livejournal.com]

Definitely E!
Think of mature as 13 year olds/15 year olds, e.g., caution advised. Anything with nudity or sex that is on-screen is explicit.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

But ... but ... Why would they have a Teen rating? To me, what you wrote should be Teen, Mature should be sex, and Explicit should be anything with dub/non-con or graphic violence.

And yet, I seem to be a minority in thinking that. Oh well! *runs off to change rating*

[leoparda.livejournal.com]

If they were movies:

T: rated PG-13

M: rated R.

E: rated NC-17 (now we're talking!)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

yeah, but movies are way behind the times when it comes to showing sex. Like ACTUAL sex.

i would think that a fanfic archive would be a bit more progressive. (or, at least the people who READ that stuff. )

[leoparda.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally agree, on both counts. Sex should be R, blood 'n' guts should be R or NC-17. I'm just putting that comparison out there.

M should be good enough.

[chocolate-frapp.livejournal.com]

not only are movies WAY behind the times when it comes to showing sex, they have a ridiculous double standard where gay sex scenes get a more explicit rating than straight sex scenes showing the exact same amount of skin. I learned that in "This Film Is Not Yet Rated", a movie that should be seen by anyone interested in the First Amendment.

[mieronna.livejournal.com]

While I don't consider nudity as such to be "adult" or "mature" material (some people are weird ;)), some of the parts of the comic do have explicit content I think - pt. 52 & 45 for example. Those contain explicit sex with visible genitals. As a comparison: I'd call pt. 44 mature and pt. 45 explicit.

Of course I do agree with you that the whole culture of rating sex higher or even of the same level as brutality and violence is ridiculous, but archives have to function within the greater society, which makes this rating system inescapable for now.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

archives have to function within the greater society, which makes this rating system inescapable for now.


Oh yes, I totally agree. I was just surprised. And honestly, since i started it some ...30 weeks ago, I had totally forgotten what I'd rated it anyway.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I can say how I'd rate it but I won't tell you how you "should" treat it; there's always room for argument about ratings, and it sounds like the query you got was upsetting. (Especially if the comment was, "You need to change the rating." Tact, people, tact!)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Well, the comment wasn't too bad,: "Could you up the rating, please? Chapter four (and others) kind of demands it. Thanks., but it DID surprise me. Not to mention that everytime I click on a story over there I"m warned that there might be mature sexy timez etc.

I thought I'd rated it G by mistake or something. I upped it to E. Not a big deal, but I was just a little surprised that anyone cared/noticed.

I certainly get warning for triggers and stuff, but the difference between M and E seems ... almost trivial.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Now that I think about it, arguing the details of the definition sounds like fun. "But do you actually SEE the rectal walls as the corona begins to enter the orifice?" :D :D :D

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

I think the difference between Mature and Explicit is fairly arbitrary, most of the time. I always thought mature was an appropriate rating for your comic.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Well, you and I seem to be in the minority here. ;)
I honestly don't really CARE, it's not hard to click on a button to change it, but I was just surprised that someone actually was ... offended?/shocked/bothered enough to ask me to change it.

[reddwarfer.livejournal.com]

The comment-I read what you posted above-seems kinda dumb to me. Yeah, because when you decided to look at Mature art, what were you expecting? Seems kinda like, ohoho, I went in for a burger and got a steak instead...yeah, well, they're both still meat, yanno?

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Ha! That is EXACTLY what I was thinking! I want to see porn, but not WITH DICKS AND STUFF! Just ... soft porn. *eyeroll*

[squeeful.livejournal.com]

Heh, as a queer woman, I'm not all that interested in seeing detailed pictures of dicks, even if I like m/m erotica. But if it happens in something I already like and am reading, I try not to don't focus on it.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Hee! You keep on 'trying not to'. ;)

I assume that you're not SURPRISED or shocked by it though. Especially if something is rated Mature.

I guess what really bothered me is that I couldn't find an acutal guidline for how to rate stuff on A03.

[forest-rose.livejournal.com]

I think I would err on the side of Explicit, at least where there are erect penises. I don't think the difference is that huge, to be honest, but you're less likely to offend someone rating too high than too low.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

You don't think it's that huge? I happen to think that Steve is VERY well endowed. ;)

And yeah, I changed it.

[forest-rose.livejournal.com]

Hahaha :D You just made me snort my tea!

[dottycow.livejournal.com]

In my humble opinion I'd probably only use the E rating if it was something proper hard-core... if I see something has an M rating I expect it to be on the adult side... if this was drawn in a photo-realistic way I 'might' just understand... maybe... but to be honest I've read M rated fic before that goes into way more detail than your comic and no-one has batted an eye... unless the commenter was expecting you to follow what appear to be the unwritten rules in UK soap operas... where only one partner in an m/m relationship may be depicted as naked at any one time... the other should remain at least partially clothed... ;-p

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that lots of regular movies will show every single detail of the woman's tits and bits, yet just fleeting glances and hints of dick. WTF?

And I agree with the E thing. This is a comic, not a photoset. *shrug*

I changed it anyway. I was just surprised that it was an issue at all.