Parental advice, please.

[tripperfunster]

Even non parents are welcome to join in!


So, Harrison is a smart, fun, active 8 year old. He loves animals (horses specifically, but enjoys all types) drawing and video games. We limit his video game time to one hour per day, because he would literally play all day long if left to his own devices.

Now, the problem. Harry is prone to what my husband and I call "Hissy Fits." When things don't go his way, or he is 'slighted' or PERCIEVES that he's been slighted, he bascially curls up into a ball, shouts a bunch of things that he will later retract and shuts down.

No amount of talking, begging, bribing or threatening seems to help. In fact, it generally makes it worse. We have found, that if we basically ignore him, he recovers more quickly. If we badger him, it can go on for hours.

We've been very careful to not 'reward' his behaviour, by like, bribing him with ice cream if he chills out, etc and/or giving in to what he originally wanted. In fact, these episode are often not about 'getting something' (but sometimes are) but are more about ... god, I don't even know. He's really odd about being singled out. Or GOD FORBID made fun of.

When he plays baseball, which he really quite enjoys, he has informed us that we are NOT allowed to shout things, like, "Good job, Harry!" or other, totally normal, non crazy parent type things. He also will not 'perform' on demand. Be it at a school sing along, or by us prompting him to re-tell a funny joke infront of company, etc.

That said, he's not particularly shy. He has not probem taking with adults or other kids. Enjoys showing people how things work, or how things are done, and makes new friends easily.

The thing he CANNOT handle is change. When something new is coming up, we need to give him lots of warning, and given enough time, he can handle things quite well. But sneak up on him with news of an upcoming trip, or people visiting, and he might freak.

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HIM!

The school principal just called. Harry is curled up in a ball, behind an easel in the classroom, and refuses to come out. The principal called to see if I had any idea as to why/how/what to do, and honestly, I'm flummoxed.

I will 'assume' that it is because school is ending in two days, which means CHANGE (good or bad, change is scary) and that's why he's out of sorts. As for what to do, i suggested he just leave him alone. He won't stay here all day, will he? I don't know!

PLEASE HELP ME!

Sorry for the ramble. Also, these hissy fits are only once to twice a month, and are often not predictable. It's not like EVERY time he doesn't get what he wants he freaks. He will often suprise me and be totally cool with change, and conversely, take me by surprise by freaking out over something that I have to inspect very closely to understand why.

Comments

[cyane-snape.livejournal.com]

I wish you luck with Harry. I don't really have any expert opinion at all, but I don't think leaving him behind the easel will hurt anything. I used to send my kids to their room, shutting the door...to isolate them. I know they had toys and things, but sometimes with mine, just being AWAY from what was going on was enough. If they had a tantrum and broke things, they would be tossed out and not replaced. Sometimes they'd scream. Every now and then I would check on them and say, "Good, you are all right. You are still punished." Sometime the screaming would start again, sometimes not. At least I was letting them know that I cared and was checking up on them, but that their behavior was unacceptable. As soon as they know they can get to you, they will use that tactic as much as possible. You just have to stick it out and be tough, while continuing to check on them. It's not easy, but you have to remain in control. You're the parent.

Good luck, I'll be praying for you.
Cyane

[sra-danvers.livejournal.com]

Wow dear, I'm a mother and I don't know what to tell you. My older is a sweetie. But my younger is really a hard bite. She screams when she's angry, but later she regret it too. Normally I punish her. But with no success at all. Is her character.
The only thing I can say you, without know more, is that you may help him to pass that change fear. Because is a bad time for him, but life is change... I would want to help you more, but motherly is hard for me too!!!

[luvscharlie.livejournal.com]

Riley has had these episodes. Change is terribly frightening to children because it removes their safety net. They need to feel secure and if Mom is always the same or my room is always the same then I know what to expect when I go in there. With Riley it could even be a sticker. She wouldn't put it on because then it would have to come off again. Or a marker smiley face on her hand might fade and she'd have to watch it, so she preferred to never have one in the first place rather than watch it fade away to nothing.

Her episodes would result a lot like Harry's. Screaming crying terror filled fits that were inconsolable. It got so bad at one point that I worried there was something I needed to know so I sought out a psychologist's advice on how to deal with it. A lot of it is simply growing and digging in their feet because they don't want to move any farther. Other parts that can be helpful is to change the things they're constantly seeing. We moved furniture in her room constantly. We repainted things. I dyed my hair and put on temporary tattoos and made sure she saw I took pleasure in all of these things. i.e. isn't it nice to have the chair sitting over here today. I can see the television from here so much better.

It did help. I'm sure every child is different, and different things will help different children. But change is one of the most important things for our kids to learn since nothing is constant, so I sought help to make sure she could embrace it or at least not crumble when it happened. And that has made a difference. She'll never be wild about change, but she is more open to it.

/ramble.

[1scout.livejournal.com]

I'm not able to give you any advice on that since Zack is a screamer and stomper when he gets angry about something.
I punish him by taking away his video games for a day and that usually puts a stop to any misbehavior..at least for awhile.
He also hates being sent to his room for any length of time, that works for him too.
I wish you luck with Harry, but I'm sure that he'll outgrow all this in a few more years. I hope yours and your husbands patience and nerves can take it till then. LOL.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

I do send them to their rooms, but moreso when they're fighting with each other. grrrrr drives me crazy!

I will also send him away if he's being hissy, but at times, like when we are out in public, or he's at school, it's a bit harder to control.

Also, these fits are ... different. He occasionally has a tantrum because he didn't get what he wanted, etc, but these are more .. emotional. I honestly believe that he does not have the skills to control himself in these situations.

My goal is to understand WTF is going on in his head, and then to TEACH him those skills. It's the understanding his head that I'm kind of stuck at right now.

Thank you very much for the advice!

And yes, I do let him know that I love him, even if he's being bad, or even if I'm angry, the love is still there. :D

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, change is EVERYWHERE! Even good change bothers him.

I think being a mother is hard for EVERYONE! :D

Yes, I know we will get past this. Thanks so much!

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Not a ramble at all, thank you very much!

sometimes it's helpful just to know that other people go through the same things too.

The odd thing is, it's so unpredictable. He didn't bat an eye when we switched horse riding schools, yet sometimes things that seem very insignificant (to me) really set him off.

Funny, Harry doesn't like temporary tattoos either. I wonder if it is for the same reason?

thanks for the advice. Perhaps making some other, small changes around the house will help him build a tolerance for it.

[cyane-snape.livejournal.com]

My two are five years apart and hated each other for most of their lives until the youngest went to college. That's when it gets easier. In public, that's always difficult. I would usually remove them from the situation and then either have a 'discussion' in the car[sometimes with a swat to the bottom, yes, I did that.] Usually I would drop everything and take them home, to be banished to their rooms.

If he's having these coping mechanism problems, why not ask the school counselor or have her/him recc someone you can ask for advice. Get a professional opinion on how to handle this, mostly for your sanity.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yes, video games are a GREAT negotiating tool! :D

Many of these fits, though aren't the same as regular bad behaviour. There is a distinct difference between him being a little asshole, (which results in exactly the type of 'corrections' that you offered) and these emotional explosions.

Not that this makes it okay, of course, but it seems more that he needs to learn how to control him emotions, instead of them controlling him.

And yes, THIS TOO SHALL PASS! (Or it will be his wife's problem, not mine!! ;D )

[veridari.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing he didn't "stay there all day" and by now he's probably rejoined the class. I think you gave the principal the right approach. After all, it's how you handle it at home, right?

My soon to be nine year old son wears his heart on his sleeve and can be much like yours - if he even THINKS he has been slighted or he's upset at a proverbial curve ball thrown his way it can cause a volcano of emotions. He takes himself to his room to sort it out usually; I just remind him I'm "here" if he needs an ear to talk to. When it would happen in public (i.e. birthday party) I too just walked out with him and let him get his act together in the car.

What I have noticed is that the intervals in his room are getting shorter and not so frequent anymore. I'm no expert on child psychology, but I bet as Harrison gets older his coping skills will mature right along with him. It certainly seems to be the case with my son...who used to have them weekly and it now happens maybe once a month.

You'll both get through this! You with some additional grey hairs I now disguise the ones my son gave me with haircolor. *hugs*

[drinkingcocoa.livejournal.com]

My sprogs are younger so I don't know if this works with older kids...but when they have freakouts, sometimes I say "Do you just need to be sad/cry for a while?" (As opposed to "do you want me to fix this" or "can you stop crying" or "is something wrong.") If they nod, they usually looked relieved too, and I periodically say "let me know when you're done or if I can hug you" and that gives them a dignified out. It also reminds them that they know these episodes have an end. If we're out in public, sometimes I say "I know your feelings are very strong right now, and you can cry, but you have to cry more quietly or out of the way" and even if this makes them mad, when I drag them out of the middle of the street and then let them resume crying, it seems to reassure them.

I have no idea if this works with someone as old and savvy as your kid. Good luck, to you and him and all of us.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

Hm. Some things sound very much like typical (to some kids) age-appropriate kid behavior to me. Things like, he has informed us that we are NOT allowed to shout things, like, "Good job, Harry!" or other, totally normal, non crazy parent type things. Also, the not being singled out or made fun of.

The curling up in a ball? Not so much. Especially when the school principal felt a need to call you. They see all kinds of behavior. For him to feel a need to call you says this is behavior they aren't used to seeing and sounds more like a red flag. I will assume that you talk to Harrison afterward when things are calm and ask him about it. Can he say why he decided he needed to do this? I know when Katie was around that age, whenever she would get angry/upset at school she would turn her back to everyone and take off her shoes. We never did find out what that was about. Katie, like other kids on the autism spectrum, adapts poorly to change. The most difficult time I had with her in my memory was between the ages of 6-10. I'm not saying your son is somewhere on the spectrum. But I am very familiar with the sometimes random (to me) appearance of change-related fits.

I'm afraid I have no real advice beyond what you are already doing. As I said, I'd pay more attention to this curling up in a ball because anytime an adult who spends time with a variety of kids with a range of behavior sees something they feel falls outside the norm, it's something to pay attention to. It could just be the way he copes with stress. And as he ages and learns other coping methods, that will stop. Can you talk with Harrison and think of other things he can do when he feels like curling up in a ball and yelling? Because he still needs a way to express his frustration/anger but he also needs not to upset/hurt others around him at the same time. I know at school there was a chair in the back of the room where kids could put themselves when they were overwhelmed. No one was sent there and there were no 'rules' about when the child could re-join the group. It was just a safe place to go until they were ready to re-join the group. Which, actually, was the original purpose of time-out before people became obsessed with there being no toys and pre-set time-limits.

[florahart]

The thing he CANNOT handle is change. When something new is coming up, we need to give him lots of warning, and given enough time, he can handle things quite well. But sneak up on him with news of an upcoming trip, or people visiting, and he might freak.

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HIM!

Does he have obsessive behaviors? You said he'll play videogames all day, but I mean, other than that. Does he have subjects that he knows tons about and will talk about to all and sundry for one million years until he had by far exceeded the interest of everyone ever, and not take cues that he's doing it again?

Clearly long-distance diagnosing by a non-psych is not entirely useful, but my K1 is highly averse to sneak changes (he's the kid that everyone was always like WTF are you THINKING because even when he was a toddler I would tell him straight-up that there was going to be an immunization at the doctor, because yeah, he didn't want the shot, but knowing it was coming was 50000% better than being surprised. He can handle pretty much any horrible thing as long as it's not a surprise), was stubborn like you can't believe (er, okay, yes you can...) about things that he wasn't happy about as a younger kid, and is very bright, and has a barely-there diagnosis of Asperger's. And I mean, this story totally could have been him in regards to any number of Things About Which He Had Issues during the like toddler to ten year old years.

Asperger's is classified in with autism, although I personally have concluded I'm not so sure that's a very useful grouping; the big common factor is difficulty with certain kinds of social interactions and/or cues, and I'm not all that sure the comparison is as good a basis as all that--and I think either way it presents differently in introverts (my K1 is like me; I am introvert mcintroverson) and extraverts. In any case, I think it might be worth doing a little reading on the topic. I'm not a doctor, but if you find yourself thinking, hm, this maybe fits, I'm happy to tell you more about our experience.

[florahart]

I should add, as accioslash says, change-averseness is also a hallmark.

(I should probably have had K1's diagnosis as well; I am pretty damn change-averse.)

[schemingreader.livejournal.com]

My kid sometimes has tantrums, though not like what you describe. Usually they are about something. He's a year younger though, so also not the same.

Often (I wanted to say usually, but I'm not really that cool!) I ask whether he'd like company or would like to be left alone, and that by itself is helpful. Or I offer my lap but ask whether he's also in the mood to be hugged? That kind of thing--give him the choice of how to calm down.

He doesn't hide or have tantrums at school, and that to me is a bit of a red flag because it sounds like he can't stop himself in an environment where my guess is he'd rather not stick out. I think florahart is right and that it might be a good thing to (I scrolled up further and someone else also used "red flag" about the school thing!) get a professional involved to get a read on what might be happening. Though my first thought would be to ask the kid--preferably when you're in the car and not looking him right in the face? But like, really calmly and sneakily? Just to see if he is willing or able to tell you about what was going on.

[veridari.livejournal.com]

Sorry about my lack of coding skills there at the end. As I was about to finish typing, I had tween girl angst thrown into the ring. That's a whole 'nuther learning curve. *rolls eyes*

[theficklepickle.livejournal.com]

Katie, like other kids on the autism spectrum, adapts poorly to change.

I'm so glad you said this, because a very similar thought was going through my mind too. It's a massive continuum and can manifest as such very slight symptoms that it often goes undiagnosed or is confused with other things. AS you say, not to be alarmist or anything but perhaps just something to bear in mind.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I get the difference between giving him space to work things out, and ignoring him.

good thing is, he doesn't hold a grudge. Personally, I would be mad for days, but once he's over it, he's OVER it.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I've coloured my hair for years, so I have no idea how grey it actually is! :D

Yes, I have no doubt that he'll eventually sort this out. I just want to help him do it sooner, rather than later.

It does seem to be a matter of too much emotion, not enough coping skills.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I do sometimes take that approach, but these episodes are a bit above and beyond that. He seems to get overwhelmed by emotion and doesn't even know if he's sad or angry or both.

I've let him know that these feelings are okay. Everybody gets angry and sad, even me. Hell, ESPECIALLY ME! :D But being a complete asshole is not okay. (well, not in those words, of course)

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, autism and Aspergers have such a VAST spectrum, they can be particularly difficult to diagnose. Not to mention, there is FUCK ALL here in Canada to help out people with these problems.

Harry definitely has some symptoms of Asbergers, but I don't think he would be diagnosed with it. (but I'm not a professional) That doesn't mean that he wouldn't benefit from some help (or that *I* wouldn't benefit from some advice from a therapist, of course.)

I suppose we'll see where the summer takes us, and perhaps we'll get in to see the school councillor next fall.

thanks for the advice, hon. <3

As for the principal calling, shit, they call about everything! Quincey got kicked in the face playing soccer the other week. His lip bled about one drop, and they immediately called me. Quincey didn't even think to MENTION it when I picked him up after school. Plus, I'm the vice prez on the Parent Advisory Council (PTA), so he knows me fairly well.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I would love to hear more about your experience.

Hubby and I have both gone ... hmmmm asbergers?

I think he is probably a lot like your son, in that there are certain things that fit him well, and others that don't seem to fall into the diagnosis at all.

Regardless of title, he obviously needs to learn some skills, and we need to help him learn them.

As for obsessiveness ... not really. I mean, geez, his mother is an obsessive porn artist!! Who am I to say who is and isn't obsessed? ;)

He drones on and on for ages about video games, and makes up 'Mario Stories', which are so boring they could peel paint, but he makes friends easily, has a fairly good sense of humour and is popular among his friends.

Quincey probably drones on more, but really, I think he just likes the sound of his own voice. :D

PM me if you don't want to plaster your son's story all over the interwebs.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I asked him tonight, and he said that one of his friends was teasing him.

I don't really know if the key cause is really that important. I think it's more the underlying (or overlying) issue at hand.

And yeah, obviously his emotions get out of control, and he's unable to handle them.

We've had guests at our house, and the end of school are probably the overlying problem, and make him more ... sensitive?

I think we'll see what the summer brings, and possibly get an appointment with the school councillor in the fall. I mean, it's not like he's freaking out on a daily basis, but there is some cause for concern.

Thanks for the advice hon! <3

[iamshadow.livejournal.com]

I see that the 'a' word has already been mentioned by some people, so I won't hesitate to mention it myself. I'm an adult with Asperger's, and, yeah, I'd look into resources for kids with ASD. If nothing else, then because he's going to be a teenager in a few years, and trust me, if he's having meltdowns at school now, high school is ten times worse in terms of change and stress. If you get some support structures and routines in place for him now, he's going to cope better then. I went through high school undiagnosed and not knowing anything about autism, and my failures, fears and inability to cope with higher level education impacted directly on my self-esteem and self-worth. My diagnosis as an adult went a good way to restoring that, because I knew that it wasn't that I was weak or lazy or stupid - I'd just been squashed into a schooling system that was completely inappropriate for my individual needs and issues, and had predictably floundered. I didn't think I had enough traits for full diagnosis either, but the psychologist thought differently. Even if Harry grows out of a lot of his autistic traits and behaviours by the time he's an adult, right now, they're affecting his life. It must be very frightening for him that things don't stay the same, that he can't control his environment to the level he needs to feel secure. More than that, he doesn't know why he feels so afraid all the time. By doing research and letting him know why he feels that way, it's empowering Harry. It's an important step towards emotional control and self regulation. I say this as someone who has had to battle the same issues as an adult. Knowing why change and other stressors affect me so violently has given me the power to step back from the raw panic and work around it. I know it's because of my autism, and it's not because I'm weak or cowardly. It's because I'm wired differently. Often, that's enough to help me breathe through it and move forward, whether it's going to something huge like a loud concert (complete with earplugs and sunglasses), or just leaving the house to go to the shops.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

Kids are weird. I'm a little surprised honestly to see that autism and Aspergers popped up so many times in comments...really? Any behavior that isn't expected means "mental disorder"? I have some pretty BIZARRE behaviors but I don't have any of those things.

I think he'll grow out of it and all you can do is be patient, tbh. I went through a WEIRD phase in school where I used to laugh laugh LAUGH every day after lunch and had to stand in the hall because I wouldn't stop. The whole thing passed eventually.

Obviously, I have no kids...I just remember being one xD

[iamshadow.livejournal.com]

As someone who's worked with kids, I agree that 'kids are weird'. I am also someone with autism, and I recognise a lot of Harry's behaviours as ones I share. Don't assume that because I'm autistic, or because the other commenters mentioning autism have autistic family members we are automatically out to 'label' a child as being different. Harry is showing a pattern of behaviours that are familiar to anyone familiar with autism. It isn't a ludicrous stretch to connect them to ASD, or other very similar pervasive developmental disorders.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

He's also showing patterns familiar to being a child. I stand by my thought that it is ridiculous to label him as autistic, whether all the commenters have personal experience with autism or not. It's the same dangerous path of thinking that almost had my brother on drugs he didn't need years and years ago and I see the label all too eagerly applied today.

If Tripp brings him to someone who diagnoses him as autistic then I will stand corrected, but until then these are my thoughts.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

Not to mention, there is FUCK ALL here in Canada to help out people with these problems.

*Nods* It sounds like how it was back when Katie was originally diagnosed. For years no one really knew anything and most differences were put down to behavioral issues brought on by bad parenting. I knew it was something more. And I often wonder what could have been different if we were able to have her correctly diagnosed when she was younger.

The spectrum *is* vast. Although I've never been diagnosed, I'm certain I'm on there somewhere. Which I'm sure didn't help. Not to mention so much being simple trial and error to see what works. I know, for example, one of the best ways for Katie to process instructions was for me to sing them to her. (Sort of how many people learned the alphabet - 'now I know my ABC's') Trust me, I was desperate enough to give anything a shot.

[accioslash.livejournal.com]

I think all the commenters took great care in *not* labeling him and suggested that only a professional could make any type of diagnosis.

And there are no drugs to 'cure' autism. Someone with autism may be prescribed anti-anxiety medication, for example, to help with other symptoms. But there is no one typical pharmacological treatment for autism like there was with, say, Ritalin for ADHD. My daughter has never taken any medication. Her treatment consists entirely of behavior management techniques. Even if Harrison isn't autistic, he might benefit from some of those techniques.

I agree that professionals tend to over-diagnose with whatever is the disorder du jour and there are a number of armchair diagnosticians among all our friends (I include myself among this number). But Tripp asked what we thought and we told her. Tripp is pretty sensible and parents always know more than people give them credit for. If she really thought this was 100% typical kid behavior, I don't think she would have asked.

[kerosinkanister.livejournal.com]

While I'm usually all to willing to give advice, helpful or not, I got nothing here.

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

I understand she was stressed/scared and asked for everyone's honest thoughts, I just think way too many brought up autism right away. It didn't even cross my mind. I still think it's worrisome.

But, we'll have to agree to disagree - except on one point. You're very right that regardless of diagnoses there are some techniques he may benefit from.

[kath-ballantyne.livejournal.com]

I think the reason it didn't cross your mind is you haven't lived with these sorts of issues day in, day out.
People are recognising the behaviours. That doesn't equal autism but the behaviours are still the same and can be treated the same.

I think it was more people saying that if you look up ways to help behaviour associated with Asperger's you'll find ways that can help with these behaviours.
The diagnosis or not is irrelevant.

There's no treatment or cure for any of the Autistic Spectrum Disorders. You can treat the problems that occur like anxiety and issues with change and stuff and those treatments can be useful even if you don't completely fit under the banner of Autism of any sort.

I know over a dozen people that sit in various places on the spectrum and although there are many interconnected issues not all of them have trouble with social issues in the obvious way.

So I think rather than people going OMG your son is Autistic people were just saying that these behaviours have something in common and that's one place you can go to look for help in dealing with them.

Trying out techniques that can help with Aspie kids isn't going to be detrimental and could help someone who is at a stage of life they're obviously having a lot of trouble with. So I think that's why people were bringing it up.

[kath-ballantyne.livejournal.com]

I think strong emotion turns up before we have the tools to deal with it properly.

I guess it's something some kids will grow out of and some kids it will get worse as they go through teenage years.
If you can talk to someone at some point about how you can help him develop ways to deal with emotion, ways to allow him to identify what's happening so he can take steps early on and not get to that point it could be very useful.

[tjs-whatnot.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

Nothing like showing up days after its relevant. But hopefully hugs are never a bad thing to throw into a party, no matter the time.

With my guy its not change so much as decisions. Give him too many decisions and he will just shut down and sometimes lose his shit in public places.

Nothing said to me in your post that he couldn't control these outbursts more then that he was having one in school...in front of all his friends. :(((( That's got to be hard.

Sounds like you got some good advice, and you're already awesomely doing great things from where I'm standing, but isn't it great to be able to hear others thoughts on these things? To know that you're not alone?

*squishes LJ and you*

[xenafox.livejournal.com]

All I have to say is:

I think the reason it didn't cross your mind is you haven't lived with these sorts of issues day in, day out.

HA! I don't have it myself and I don't have kids, but wow have I dealt with it more than I ever want to.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sharing your story!

I suggested to him that we might see a doctor to help him with his issues and panic attacks, and he was actually pretty cool with the idea.

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Nah, I don't think he would be diagnosed as such, but he definitely DOES show some of the signs, so ... who know? But like someone said above, even if he doesn't have ALL they symptoms, some of the strategies might help him deal with stuff.

*hugs*

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Well, thanks for looking anyway! <3

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

I suggested that we might see a doctor to help him, and he wasn't opposed to it, so ... we'll see!

And yeah, I think he would eventually get over it on his own, but why suffer longer than he has to?

[tripperfunster.livejournal.com]

Oh, late is never bad!

Yes, isn't the internet great? My flist is so amazing, i knew they wouldn't let me down!

Thanks so much!

*squishes you back*